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	<title>Comments for Idol Chatter</title>
	<link>http://kaweah.com/blog</link>
	<description>The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:32:38 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2</generator>

	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ketman: Veiling God by Dan Jensen</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-274</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 07:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-274</guid>
					<description>Hi Wahid,

I can hardly deny being an American. It appears that you consider the categories &quot;American&quot; and &quot;Muslim&quot; mutually exclusive. In that case, I could never have been a Muslim. I suspect the same logic applies to you, unless you are an Arab.

I was raised on the road, from south-central LA to the impoverished Islands off South Carolina, the son of missionary parents: a blind father and an epileptic mother, doing what they could to bring their very Islamic message of One God One Religion One Mankind to the world. We had our Jihad. We lived to spread the House of Peace. World peace and World domination. Sometimes we did well, sometimes we barely got by. Sometimes we got by on the good will of others.

Your criticisms of the Baha'i Faith's attempts to westernize only corroborate my point that it is a heresy, hated only all the more by anti-western Islamists such as yourself. But the Baha'i Faith will never shake off its Islamic roots; its Sunni legalism and politics, and its Shi'a idolatries. Its westernization remains a PR drive, largely skin deep. The fundamentals remain very Islamic: law, fear, community, world domination.

Shoghi Effendi was, by the way, a child of his times. He was no Westerner, nor did he aspire to be one. He was contemptuous of Western ideals. He was a Islamo-Communist. I'm confident that time will bear that out, but no one may remain that cares enough to write a book on it.

As for mutatis mutandis, I am no apologist for Christendom. I can see good in a variety of spiritual traditions. For instance, I can see how Islam and Christianity both served to inspire secretive movements because they both oppressed heresies in similar fashions. Your many levels of meaning in the Qur'an, just like the many levels of meaning in the Bible, are simply due to the fact that different people have been forced by orthodox persecution to recast scripture as they could because they were not permitted to recognize anything else as holy. Different shades of meaning will always emerge when unlimited imaginations are incarcerated within a book--regardless of the book.

Respectfully,
Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Wahid,</p>
<p>I can hardly deny being an American. It appears that you consider the categories &#8220;American&#8221; and &#8220;Muslim&#8221; mutually exclusive. In that case, I could never have been a Muslim. I suspect the same logic applies to you, unless you are an Arab.</p>
<p>I was raised on the road, from south-central LA to the impoverished Islands off South Carolina, the son of missionary parents: a blind father and an epileptic mother, doing what they could to bring their very Islamic message of One God One Religion One Mankind to the world. We had our Jihad. We lived to spread the House of Peace. World peace and World domination. Sometimes we did well, sometimes we barely got by. Sometimes we got by on the good will of others.</p>
<p>Your criticisms of the Baha&#8217;i Faith&#8217;s attempts to westernize only corroborate my point that it is a heresy, hated only all the more by anti-western Islamists such as yourself. But the Baha&#8217;i Faith will never shake off its Islamic roots; its Sunni legalism and politics, and its Shi&#8217;a idolatries. Its westernization remains a PR drive, largely skin deep. The fundamentals remain very Islamic: law, fear, community, world domination.</p>
<p>Shoghi Effendi was, by the way, a child of his times. He was no Westerner, nor did he aspire to be one. He was contemptuous of Western ideals. He was a Islamo-Communist. I&#8217;m confident that time will bear that out, but no one may remain that cares enough to write a book on it.</p>
<p>As for mutatis mutandis, I am no apologist for Christendom. I can see good in a variety of spiritual traditions. For instance, I can see how Islam and Christianity both served to inspire secretive movements because they both oppressed heresies in similar fashions. Your many levels of meaning in the Qur&#8217;an, just like the many levels of meaning in the Bible, are simply due to the fact that different people have been forced by orthodox persecution to recast scripture as they could because they were not permitted to recognize anything else as holy. Different shades of meaning will always emerge when unlimited imaginations are incarcerated within a book&#8211;regardless of the book.</p>
<p>Respectfully,<br />
Dan
</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ketman: Veiling God by Wahid Azal</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-273</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 05:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-273</guid>
					<description>Dear Dan,

1) You say,
&quot;I was raised a Baha’i. This means to me that I was raised as a heretical Muslim.&quot;

I would beg to differ with you here on the assumptions you are making and would submit that whether raised as a Bahai or currently in your post-Bahai status, you are and have remained throughout as American as apple pie. I think the assumptions that you are making are also part of a larger pedagogical problem of a typological Bahai social individuation, shall we say, that extends well beyond yourself. Let's unpack what this can mean in light of the Baha'i sub-culture you hailed from.

a- You're an American, white, middle-class. 
b- Your religious affiliation growing up was Haifan Bahai. 
c - I am also assuming you grew up as a suburbanite and not in the rural countryside.

These three factors above demonstrate that your social pedigree growing up was as far as an adherent to a heretical Islamic offshoot sect as one can get, since there is nothing remotely Islamic (whether culturally or otherwise) about the Western and North American white Bahai culture other than as a sort of &quot;claimed&quot; (and tangentially claimed, at that) reference point as to an origin. This is a long convoluted discussion, and we can get into it if you wish, but I would submit that your social individuation in Baha'i-scape had more to do with both prevailing Western North American Protestant Christian, secular and American assumptions than any heretical Islamicate ones. If you had been a Shriner, a member of the Nation of Islam and similarly heterodoxically placed Islamic groups in America,  this would be one thing. But given the emphasis of Shoghi Effendi from the 1920s to culturally de-Islamize the BF in both the West and the East, and given the predominance of white socialite upper class types in the leadership machinery of the BAO from the teens of the 20th century, it is evident as the noon day sun that you are more a product of your own culture than of the East, even by association of label.

Moreover, the literature of the BF in the West is witness to a literary (for lack of a better word) de-contamination conducted of overtly Islamic or Islamicate themes and nuances; so whatever you were exposed to, again, was a socially engineered effort by the leaders of your creed to 'represent' something without actually representing it as it is, i.e. claiming without essentialized representation. The warped denigration that Islamicate culture suffers under Bahai literary representations (not to mention the Bahai mind) is legion, and no one can come away from such relentless propaganda over a lifetime other than brainwashed to some level. This is all called re-Imagination and it is a species of falsification that all totalitarian creeds engage in. Both the Bahai historical texts and the culture supporting it as a whole are full of this stuff;  so, again, what you grew up with was not what you are saying it was. I should know, because I grew up within both your own sub-culture as well as the Persian one, which is even more rabidly anti-Islamic than yours - albeit it has attempted to keep a veneer of Persian-ness intact (however inadequately).

2) You say,
&quot;I don’t think the case for esotericism in Islam is so strong, considering that so many Muslims have managed without the esoteric for so long.&quot;

Mutatis mutandis, this same argument can be applied to the Christian West, and even more strongly. You are making an argument from contemporary circumstances with the rise of fundamentalism and Islamism in the modern period and applying it to the whole of Islamicate civilization. This is patently false. You had several Muslim empires that rose from within the matrixes of various esotericisms. The Fatimid state of Egypt was founded by Isma'ilis, the most esoteric branch of Shi'ism. Sufi orders abounded in the mid Abbasid period almost as a quasi-pillar of the state. The Safavid state was founded by Turkish speaking Qizilbash Sufi warriors. Babur, the founder of the Mughal state of India, was a Sufi, and the influence of the Chishti order in the court of Mughal India is well documented. The influence of Sufi figures and Sufi orders amongst the Mamelukes, the Seljuqs and countless dynasties and states is legion. During the Ottoman period Sufism was almost the official Islamic credo, and on and on the evidence goes.

In fact, as compared to medieval Catholic Europe (and even Protestant Europe of the Reformation) the Islamicate world enjoyed far more esoteric diversities than Europe ever did or could -- note they committed wholesale genocide against Cathars and Bogomils in Europe, excommunicated people like Meister Echkart on flimsy pretexts, while the Qarmatiyyun could get away in stealing the Black Stone in Mecca itself. And on and on the evidence goes. This is not to suggest that medieval Islamicate was some esotericist's paradise. It patently was not. But it was far, far beyond the erroneous pictures being painted here.  As such your assertion that &quot;...the case for esotericism in Islam is [not] so strong&quot; is plain wrong and both history and the textual tradition proves it so. Esotericism has been vibrant in the Islamic world from day one and the present forces ranged against it, such the Neo-Salafi brands of fundamentalism or even Khomeinism, are in any case products or reactions to secularizing efforts in the twentieth century. Even a firebrand reactionary and opponent of an Ibn 'Arabi such as Ibn Taymiyyah counted himself as a Sufi and initiate of an esoteric fraternity. How do you explain that one?

No, I think your minimalization of the esotericisms of Islamicate - that is, until the modern period with the rise of reactionary fundamentalisms -- is more a product of a Bahai pedagogy of the world and history, not actual facts. Besides, as the adage goes, outside of the urban centers, the Islamic world is awash in oceans of heterodoxy and esotercism.

Wahid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dan,</p>
<p>1) You say,<br />
&#8220;I was raised a Baha’i. This means to me that I was raised as a heretical Muslim.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would beg to differ with you here on the assumptions you are making and would submit that whether raised as a Bahai or currently in your post-Bahai status, you are and have remained throughout as American as apple pie. I think the assumptions that you are making are also part of a larger pedagogical problem of a typological Bahai social individuation, shall we say, that extends well beyond yourself. Let&#8217;s unpack what this can mean in light of the Baha&#8217;i sub-culture you hailed from.</p>
<p>a- You&#8217;re an American, white, middle-class.<br />
b- Your religious affiliation growing up was Haifan Bahai.<br />
c - I am also assuming you grew up as a suburbanite and not in the rural countryside.</p>
<p>These three factors above demonstrate that your social pedigree growing up was as far as an adherent to a heretical Islamic offshoot sect as one can get, since there is nothing remotely Islamic (whether culturally or otherwise) about the Western and North American white Bahai culture other than as a sort of &#8220;claimed&#8221; (and tangentially claimed, at that) reference point as to an origin. This is a long convoluted discussion, and we can get into it if you wish, but I would submit that your social individuation in Baha&#8217;i-scape had more to do with both prevailing Western North American Protestant Christian, secular and American assumptions than any heretical Islamicate ones. If you had been a Shriner, a member of the Nation of Islam and similarly heterodoxically placed Islamic groups in America,  this would be one thing. But given the emphasis of Shoghi Effendi from the 1920s to culturally de-Islamize the BF in both the West and the East, and given the predominance of white socialite upper class types in the leadership machinery of the BAO from the teens of the 20th century, it is evident as the noon day sun that you are more a product of your own culture than of the East, even by association of label.</p>
<p>Moreover, the literature of the BF in the West is witness to a literary (for lack of a better word) de-contamination conducted of overtly Islamic or Islamicate themes and nuances; so whatever you were exposed to, again, was a socially engineered effort by the leaders of your creed to &#8216;represent&#8217; something without actually representing it as it is, i.e. claiming without essentialized representation. The warped denigration that Islamicate culture suffers under Bahai literary representations (not to mention the Bahai mind) is legion, and no one can come away from such relentless propaganda over a lifetime other than brainwashed to some level. This is all called re-Imagination and it is a species of falsification that all totalitarian creeds engage in. Both the Bahai historical texts and the culture supporting it as a whole are full of this stuff;  so, again, what you grew up with was not what you are saying it was. I should know, because I grew up within both your own sub-culture as well as the Persian one, which is even more rabidly anti-Islamic than yours - albeit it has attempted to keep a veneer of Persian-ness intact (however inadequately).</p>
<p>2) You say,<br />
&#8220;I don’t think the case for esotericism in Islam is so strong, considering that so many Muslims have managed without the esoteric for so long.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mutatis mutandis, this same argument can be applied to the Christian West, and even more strongly. You are making an argument from contemporary circumstances with the rise of fundamentalism and Islamism in the modern period and applying it to the whole of Islamicate civilization. This is patently false. You had several Muslim empires that rose from within the matrixes of various esotericisms. The Fatimid state of Egypt was founded by Isma&#8217;ilis, the most esoteric branch of Shi&#8217;ism. Sufi orders abounded in the mid Abbasid period almost as a quasi-pillar of the state. The Safavid state was founded by Turkish speaking Qizilbash Sufi warriors. Babur, the founder of the Mughal state of India, was a Sufi, and the influence of the Chishti order in the court of Mughal India is well documented. The influence of Sufi figures and Sufi orders amongst the Mamelukes, the Seljuqs and countless dynasties and states is legion. During the Ottoman period Sufism was almost the official Islamic credo, and on and on the evidence goes.</p>
<p>In fact, as compared to medieval Catholic Europe (and even Protestant Europe of the Reformation) the Islamicate world enjoyed far more esoteric diversities than Europe ever did or could &#8212; note they committed wholesale genocide against Cathars and Bogomils in Europe, excommunicated people like Meister Echkart on flimsy pretexts, while the Qarmatiyyun could get away in stealing the Black Stone in Mecca itself. And on and on the evidence goes. This is not to suggest that medieval Islamicate was some esotericist&#8217;s paradise. It patently was not. But it was far, far beyond the erroneous pictures being painted here.  As such your assertion that &#8220;&#8230;the case for esotericism in Islam is [not] so strong&#8221; is plain wrong and both history and the textual tradition proves it so. Esotericism has been vibrant in the Islamic world from day one and the present forces ranged against it, such the Neo-Salafi brands of fundamentalism or even Khomeinism, are in any case products or reactions to secularizing efforts in the twentieth century. Even a firebrand reactionary and opponent of an Ibn &#8216;Arabi such as Ibn Taymiyyah counted himself as a Sufi and initiate of an esoteric fraternity. How do you explain that one?</p>
<p>No, I think your minimalization of the esotericisms of Islamicate - that is, until the modern period with the rise of reactionary fundamentalisms &#8212; is more a product of a Bahai pedagogy of the world and history, not actual facts. Besides, as the adage goes, outside of the urban centers, the Islamic world is awash in oceans of heterodoxy and esotercism.</p>
<p>Wahid
</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ketman: Veiling God by Dan Jensen</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-272</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-272</guid>
					<description>Dear Wahid,

Thanks again. Your input certainly has added much to my understanding.

I was raised a Baha'i. This means to me that I was raised as a heretical Muslim. I was raised on Quranic verses and Islamic notions, with no lack of Shi'a and Sufi content (albeit unoriginal). In light of this, I hardly feel like some wide-eyed orientalist-tourist like Browne, de Gobineau, or Corbin, so eager to be seduced by the exotic. I most admire western minds such as those of Heraclitus, Albert Einstein, and Henry David Thoreau. But yes, I am quite interested in Persian religion; and no, I do not admire the Sassanians. The Sassanians were dogmatic, brutal tyrants. So were the Umayyads.

I'm reading Corbin, BTW, so maybe I'll come around. Thanks for the suggestion. I've read Moezzi, but I don't think enough, and I plan to read his &quot;The Divine Guide in Early Shi'Ism: The Sources of Esotericism in Islam&quot;.

As I concluded in the entry following this one, I believe that Shi'a Islam is fundamentally Islamic, so I don't believe we have a disagreement in that respect.

I don't think the case for esotericism in Islam is so strong, considering that so many Muslims have managed without the esoteric for so long. How many times has one of these esoterics whom you (and I) admire fallen under Muslim accusations of heresy? Some, such as Al-Hallaj and Suhrawardi, were executed for their &quot;esotericism&quot;. Of course, esoteric Muslims such as yourself must insist that Islam is fundamentally esoteric, but there are plenty of blue collar Muslims who see their faith as a matter of practical obedience (submission) to God.

I do not deny that early Islam had some esoteric aspects, but I think the esoteric has always been a minority position in Islam, which is of course a natural place for the esoteric. I am well aware of the Verse of Light, as it was by far my favorite Quranic verse when I was a young Baha'i. To me, it says that divine knowledge exists at many levels (light being latent in oil was hardly a new idea), but I now prefer the Hadith that commands Muslims to &quot;seek knowledge even unto China&quot;, because that actually admits that knowledge can be found outside &quot;the Book&quot;. The Light Verse stands alone in a book that is too brutish to be read as a mystical guide. In general, I think that esoteric readings of the Qur'an are inspired more by a need to recast all the Qur'an's calls to slaughter, mayhem, and persecution in a more humane light. Even the calls to charity in the Qur'an read like &quot;do it or else&quot; threats. Sufism seems a natural human response to Islam. In that respect, Sufism is very Islamic, but how many Sufis recite only the Qur'an?

I only know a little Arabic--primarily classical, having studied under Mark Hellaby for a year at the Baha'i World Centre and on my own. I was surprised to discover how little Arabic many Persian Baha'is have allowed themselves to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Wahid,</p>
<p>Thanks again. Your input certainly has added much to my understanding.</p>
<p>I was raised a Baha&#8217;i. This means to me that I was raised as a heretical Muslim. I was raised on Quranic verses and Islamic notions, with no lack of Shi&#8217;a and Sufi content (albeit unoriginal). In light of this, I hardly feel like some wide-eyed orientalist-tourist like Browne, de Gobineau, or Corbin, so eager to be seduced by the exotic. I most admire western minds such as those of Heraclitus, Albert Einstein, and Henry David Thoreau. But yes, I am quite interested in Persian religion; and no, I do not admire the Sassanians. The Sassanians were dogmatic, brutal tyrants. So were the Umayyads.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m reading Corbin, BTW, so maybe I&#8217;ll come around. Thanks for the suggestion. I&#8217;ve read Moezzi, but I don&#8217;t think enough, and I plan to read his &#8220;The Divine Guide in Early Shi&#8217;Ism: The Sources of Esotericism in Islam&#8221;.</p>
<p>As I concluded in the entry following this one, I believe that Shi&#8217;a Islam is fundamentally Islamic, so I don&#8217;t believe we have a disagreement in that respect.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think the case for esotericism in Islam is so strong, considering that so many Muslims have managed without the esoteric for so long. How many times has one of these esoterics whom you (and I) admire fallen under Muslim accusations of heresy? Some, such as Al-Hallaj and Suhrawardi, were executed for their &#8220;esotericism&#8221;. Of course, esoteric Muslims such as yourself must insist that Islam is fundamentally esoteric, but there are plenty of blue collar Muslims who see their faith as a matter of practical obedience (submission) to God.</p>
<p>I do not deny that early Islam had some esoteric aspects, but I think the esoteric has always been a minority position in Islam, which is of course a natural place for the esoteric. I am well aware of the Verse of Light, as it was by far my favorite Quranic verse when I was a young Baha&#8217;i. To me, it says that divine knowledge exists at many levels (light being latent in oil was hardly a new idea), but I now prefer the Hadith that commands Muslims to &#8220;seek knowledge even unto China&#8221;, because that actually admits that knowledge can be found outside &#8220;the Book&#8221;. The Light Verse stands alone in a book that is too brutish to be read as a mystical guide. In general, I think that esoteric readings of the Qur&#8217;an are inspired more by a need to recast all the Qur&#8217;an&#8217;s calls to slaughter, mayhem, and persecution in a more humane light. Even the calls to charity in the Qur&#8217;an read like &#8220;do it or else&#8221; threats. Sufism seems a natural human response to Islam. In that respect, Sufism is very Islamic, but how many Sufis recite only the Qur&#8217;an?</p>
<p>I only know a little Arabic&#8211;primarily classical, having studied under Mark Hellaby for a year at the Baha&#8217;i World Centre and on my own. I was surprised to discover how little Arabic many Persian Baha&#8217;is have allowed themselves to learn.
</p>
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		<title>Comment on Ketman: Veiling God by Wahid Azal</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-269</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jul 2008 11:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/ketman-veiling-god/#comment-269</guid>
					<description>Dear Dan,

You sound like a nineteenth century Edward Sa'idian type orientalist caricature pontificating on a subject far more complex than how you are laying it out here. And either you have not read Moezzi or are misrepresenting his arguments.

1) Esotericism is hard wired into any reading of the Qur'an, and from the very beginning as Moezzi has shown. In fact it is the very reading of the Qur'an over the question of providential guidance/wilaya that splits Islam between the Shi'a and the Sunni, not whether dispossessed Zoroastrians under the Muslim conquest become the agents of subterfuge under the cloak of Shi'ism. Yes, the Zoroastrian milieu contributed to the development of Shi'ism in significant ways. But overstating this angle in a historical trajectory is deliberately failing to look at multiple internal developments and the phenomenology of the Text as well as the ur-phenomenon of the question of continuing Prophetic charisma under strained circumstances and usurpation, which contributed to the esotericism (although there were many other factors as well). Moezzi lays all this out. How do you explain the existence of passages like the Throne Verse, the Light Verse and many similar in the Qur'an, or the blatantly Gnostic Docetist narrative of Jesus' cruxifixion and death in the Book, or the Hekhalotian Jewish Gnostic nature of the Moses narrative? These weren't Zoroastrian at all. If outside influences are to be invoked, then an even touchier question arises about Muhammad's possible Gnostic - i.e. Jewish, Christian Ebionite and Manichaean - influences before a single Arab Muslim army had even set foot in Iran. For example, the whole lacunae of the &quot;seal of prophets&quot; is conspicuously Manichaean from start to finish, as is the revelatory continuation through time of the True Religion motif, not to mention the imagery of the World Tree and Lamp in the Light Verse. If you accede to this, then you must then accept that the foundations of Islam - at least with Muhammad Himself (pbuh) - derived from an esoteric template of some sort.

2) Also, like many of these Orientalists, in this and other posts, you seem to want to paint such a rosy picture of Sassanian religion that you forget that the Empire fell not because of a better Arab conquest army; but because both internal and external subjects were fed up with the uncompromising caste rigidities and unchecked fundamentalist priestly zealotry of the Sassanian state. A High Priest Kartir would give any Osama, Khomeini or Deobandi cleric a run for his money and then some, and in the manner in which he was instrumental in the bloody genocidal persecution of Manichaeans and later his successors with the Mazdakites, tends to diminish the whinging arguments about the Muslim conquest and how it panned out. The religious minorities under the Muslim conquest actually faired better in the long run than they did under the brutal and intolerant fundamentalist Sassanian state.

2) Salman the Persian was a Mazdakite who converted to Christianity and then Islam. FYI

3) Do you know Arabic, and classical literary Arabic? If so, your argument falls again.


Wahid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dan,</p>
<p>You sound like a nineteenth century Edward Sa&#8217;idian type orientalist caricature pontificating on a subject far more complex than how you are laying it out here. And either you have not read Moezzi or are misrepresenting his arguments.</p>
<p>1) Esotericism is hard wired into any reading of the Qur&#8217;an, and from the very beginning as Moezzi has shown. In fact it is the very reading of the Qur&#8217;an over the question of providential guidance/wilaya that splits Islam between the Shi&#8217;a and the Sunni, not whether dispossessed Zoroastrians under the Muslim conquest become the agents of subterfuge under the cloak of Shi&#8217;ism. Yes, the Zoroastrian milieu contributed to the development of Shi&#8217;ism in significant ways. But overstating this angle in a historical trajectory is deliberately failing to look at multiple internal developments and the phenomenology of the Text as well as the ur-phenomenon of the question of continuing Prophetic charisma under strained circumstances and usurpation, which contributed to the esotericism (although there were many other factors as well). Moezzi lays all this out. How do you explain the existence of passages like the Throne Verse, the Light Verse and many similar in the Qur&#8217;an, or the blatantly Gnostic Docetist narrative of Jesus&#8217; cruxifixion and death in the Book, or the Hekhalotian Jewish Gnostic nature of the Moses narrative? These weren&#8217;t Zoroastrian at all. If outside influences are to be invoked, then an even touchier question arises about Muhammad&#8217;s possible Gnostic - i.e. Jewish, Christian Ebionite and Manichaean - influences before a single Arab Muslim army had even set foot in Iran. For example, the whole lacunae of the &#8220;seal of prophets&#8221; is conspicuously Manichaean from start to finish, as is the revelatory continuation through time of the True Religion motif, not to mention the imagery of the World Tree and Lamp in the Light Verse. If you accede to this, then you must then accept that the foundations of Islam - at least with Muhammad Himself (pbuh) - derived from an esoteric template of some sort.</p>
<p>2) Also, like many of these Orientalists, in this and other posts, you seem to want to paint such a rosy picture of Sassanian religion that you forget that the Empire fell not because of a better Arab conquest army; but because both internal and external subjects were fed up with the uncompromising caste rigidities and unchecked fundamentalist priestly zealotry of the Sassanian state. A High Priest Kartir would give any Osama, Khomeini or Deobandi cleric a run for his money and then some, and in the manner in which he was instrumental in the bloody genocidal persecution of Manichaeans and later his successors with the Mazdakites, tends to diminish the whinging arguments about the Muslim conquest and how it panned out. The religious minorities under the Muslim conquest actually faired better in the long run than they did under the brutal and intolerant fundamentalist Sassanian state.</p>
<p>2) Salman the Persian was a Mazdakite who converted to Christianity and then Islam. FYI</p>
<p>3) Do you know Arabic, and classical literary Arabic? If so, your argument falls again.</p>
<p>Wahid
</p>
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		<title>Comment on Parsí Dualism in Shí‘a Islám by Dan Jensen</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/parsi-dualism-in-shi%e2%80%98a-islam/#comment-266</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/parsi-dualism-in-shi%e2%80%98a-islam/#comment-266</guid>
					<description>Hi Tim,

Looks like I ought to read your book. Scary stuff. I'm hopeful for reform in Islam, but I think reform has to begin with open eyes. It's an honor to hear from you.

-Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Tim,</p>
<p>Looks like I ought to read your book. Scary stuff. I&#8217;m hopeful for reform in Islam, but I think reform has to begin with open eyes. It&#8217;s an honor to hear from you.</p>
<p>-Dan
</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ty Cobb: All-American by NORM COLEMAN</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-265</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-265</guid>
					<description>Dan:

The Tom Stanton book is great.  Also check out  Al;so, check out Inside Baseball
with Ty Cobb by Wesley Fricks, America's greatest Cobb historian and the
founder of the Cobb Museum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan:</p>
<p>The Tom Stanton book is great.  Also check out  Al;so, check out Inside Baseball<br />
with Ty Cobb by Wesley Fricks, America&#8217;s greatest Cobb historian and the<br />
founder of the Cobb Museum.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ty Cobb: All-American by NORM COLEMAN</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-264</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-264</guid>
					<description>Dan:

Is that you in the Giants shirt?  I you a SABR member?  We just had a meeting at
AT&amp;#38;T park today. Great group for baseball fans.  Check my web site for my 
GREAT adventure in Royston, GA this week, the home of TY COBB.  The town is
celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Ty Cobb Museum.
Will post photos and notes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan:</p>
<p>Is that you in the Giants shirt?  I you a SABR member?  We just had a meeting at<br />
AT&amp;T park today. Great group for baseball fans.  Check my web site for my<br />
GREAT adventure in Royston, GA this week, the home of TY COBB.  The town is<br />
celebrating the 10th anniversary of the Ty Cobb Museum.<br />
Will post photos and notes.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Ty Cobb: All-American by NORM COLEMAN</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-263</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/27/ty-cobb-all-american/#comment-263</guid>
					<description>In reply to Dan Jensen, thanks for your kind note.  For any fans of Ty Cobb or
if you wish to be notified of my next appearance, check my web site, e-mail me
and I will send you my show schedule. Thanks.  Norm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to Dan Jensen, thanks for your kind note.  For any fans of Ty Cobb or<br />
if you wish to be notified of my next appearance, check my web site, e-mail me<br />
and I will send you my show schedule. Thanks.  Norm
</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on Religion and Conscience by Wahid Azal</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/20/religion-and-conscience/#comment-262</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/06/20/religion-and-conscience/#comment-262</guid>
					<description>Dear Dan,

The Khushnumis are a Neo-Sepassi Zoroastrian sect I have run into recently that interpret pretty much most of the Avestan scriptures in quasi-Neoplatonic fashion and hold to the Kabbalo-Islamic notion of a Greatest Name of the Godhead, which they claim is &quot;Ahu,&quot; hence their designation as Khushnumis (those who follow the Good/Kush Name/Nam or 'Num' in the Gujarati Parsi dialect).

In any day and age -- unless in the name of a Hermeto- pan-Abrahamo-Iranian esoteric Left-Handed syncretistic adepthood you deliberately throw all caution to the winds as a sort of Tikkun and name yourself Wahid Azal; or are otherwise named Siyyid 'Ali Muhammad Shirazi or Hussain ibn Mansur al-Hallaj from another era --,  all practicing esotericism(s) become a matter of self-preservation and &quot;exercising the discipline of the arcane&quot; (taqiyyah); this, otherwise you will earn the the total opprobrium of decent society or get yourself maimed and killed, at worst. The operative motto for those not Left-Handedly inclined is prudently &quot;To Know, To Will, To Dare and To Keep Silent,&quot; and this was coined by Western Adepts of the Great Craft not Shi'ites or Sufis in the East. And it is as simple and cut and dry as that because to put it as a great recent Sufi master put it,

&quot;If you love the Truth, the world will hate you,
If you hate the Truth, the world will love you.&quot;
-- Bawa Muhayiddin

The fact of the matter is as brutal as that. 

Now this the case not because the secret is so big no one can bear to hear or face it who doesn't genuinely have a predisposition to do so (and the Secret is HUGE, don't get me wrong). The fact is that the Truth is so blindingly manifest that it requires a lifetime of de-programming on every conceivable level (what Abulafia called untying the knots of soul) to be able to have the predisposition to recognize It simply because socialized human beings (being creatures of the herd from the moment they are born) are specifically designed to reject it due to the fact that such a Truth confronts them on every aspect of their socially constructed identities. Now what this Secret and Truth is has nothing to do with any doctrine or Church per se. The True Living Divinity or Godhead is not an ideology or possibly capable of ideologization in any form. Henry Corbin said it best when he stated emphatically &quot;The Church = Ahriman.&quot; In the context of Baha'i adminolotry never were such words of penetrating fact spoken more truly than that! This is a long, convoluted and involved discussion, but the best place to turn to what this Truth means (at least for me) has been the hadith kumayl of 'Ali, which to me has been an endless source of meditation going on eleven-thirteen years now.

That the experience of esotericism in the West in recent memory (and the East in some parts as well) has been about elitist frat-boy clubs does not mean, therefore, that esotericism is about any horizontal, this-wordly elitisms or weilding of temporal power (even if behind the scenes). And that these things cannot be spoken does not mean they are not able to be communicated on some level. They are not spoken or communicable because other than those who have witnessed and tasted such things themselves, or have a magnetic predisposition to it, such things cannot be spoken in any layman's level that is remotely intelligible. Crack open any alchemical text and you'll see what I mean immediately. 

This said, there are ways to perceive and taste without having to go through the rigmarole of sitting in an ashram or cave for enth number of years and meditating oneself into the Reality, but unfortunately  these quicker methods are usually deemed illegal by society and so inaccessible to many (there is the herd/pashu again blocking up the gates to Reality for those wishing escape out of maya). Sound familiar?

In any case, I leave you with this, the *hadith kumayl* (the dialogue of 'Ali and his disciple Kumayl), which to me and the Tradition I follow stands as the ultimate summary of the highest of the Truths possibly communicate-able in words:

--
Kumayl: O Commander of the Faithful, what is Ultimate Reality (ma'l-haqiqa)?

'Ali: what have you and Ultimate Reality have to do with each other?

Kumayl: Is it not the case that I am sharing your secrets as a companion?

'Ali: Yes, indeed. But that which sprinkles unto you is billowing through me unto you?

Kumayl: So what is Ultimate Reality?

'Ali: The Disclosure of the Majesties of Glorification without indication.

Kumayl: Tell me more.

'Ali: The apophatic negation of all speculation and the realization of that which can be realized.

Kumayl: Tell me more.

'Ali: The nullificative annihilation of the secret by the Victorious rending of the Veil off the Mystery of the Secret.

Kumayl: Please tell me more.

'Ali: The attraction of the Divine Oneness by the attributive apprehension of the Divine Unicity.

Kumayl: Tell me more.

'Ali: A Light Illuminating from the Morning-Dawn of Pre-Eternity and shedding Its traces upon the Talismanic-Temples of Mono-Unitarian Unicity.

Kumayl: Please explicate further.

'Ali: Extinguish the lamp for the dawn hath indeed arisen!

--
 
Wahid</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Dan,</p>
<p>The Khushnumis are a Neo-Sepassi Zoroastrian sect I have run into recently that interpret pretty much most of the Avestan scriptures in quasi-Neoplatonic fashion and hold to the Kabbalo-Islamic notion of a Greatest Name of the Godhead, which they claim is &#8220;Ahu,&#8221; hence their designation as Khushnumis (those who follow the Good/Kush Name/Nam or &#8216;Num&#8217; in the Gujarati Parsi dialect).</p>
<p>In any day and age &#8212; unless in the name of a Hermeto- pan-Abrahamo-Iranian esoteric Left-Handed syncretistic adepthood you deliberately throw all caution to the winds as a sort of Tikkun and name yourself Wahid Azal; or are otherwise named Siyyid &#8216;Ali Muhammad Shirazi or Hussain ibn Mansur al-Hallaj from another era &#8211;,  all practicing esotericism(s) become a matter of self-preservation and &#8220;exercising the discipline of the arcane&#8221; (taqiyyah); this, otherwise you will earn the the total opprobrium of decent society or get yourself maimed and killed, at worst. The operative motto for those not Left-Handedly inclined is prudently &#8220;To Know, To Will, To Dare and To Keep Silent,&#8221; and this was coined by Western Adepts of the Great Craft not Shi&#8217;ites or Sufis in the East. And it is as simple and cut and dry as that because to put it as a great recent Sufi master put it,</p>
<p>&#8220;If you love the Truth, the world will hate you,<br />
If you hate the Truth, the world will love you.&#8221;<br />
&#8211; Bawa Muhayiddin</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is as brutal as that. </p>
<p>Now this the case not because the secret is so big no one can bear to hear or face it who doesn&#8217;t genuinely have a predisposition to do so (and the Secret is HUGE, don&#8217;t get me wrong). The fact is that the Truth is so blindingly manifest that it requires a lifetime of de-programming on every conceivable level (what Abulafia called untying the knots of soul) to be able to have the predisposition to recognize It simply because socialized human beings (being creatures of the herd from the moment they are born) are specifically designed to reject it due to the fact that such a Truth confronts them on every aspect of their socially constructed identities. Now what this Secret and Truth is has nothing to do with any doctrine or Church per se. The True Living Divinity or Godhead is not an ideology or possibly capable of ideologization in any form. Henry Corbin said it best when he stated emphatically &#8220;The Church = Ahriman.&#8221; In the context of Baha&#8217;i adminolotry never were such words of penetrating fact spoken more truly than that! This is a long, convoluted and involved discussion, but the best place to turn to what this Truth means (at least for me) has been the hadith kumayl of &#8216;Ali, which to me has been an endless source of meditation going on eleven-thirteen years now.</p>
<p>That the experience of esotericism in the West in recent memory (and the East in some parts as well) has been about elitist frat-boy clubs does not mean, therefore, that esotericism is about any horizontal, this-wordly elitisms or weilding of temporal power (even if behind the scenes). And that these things cannot be spoken does not mean they are not able to be communicated on some level. They are not spoken or communicable because other than those who have witnessed and tasted such things themselves, or have a magnetic predisposition to it, such things cannot be spoken in any layman&#8217;s level that is remotely intelligible. Crack open any alchemical text and you&#8217;ll see what I mean immediately. </p>
<p>This said, there are ways to perceive and taste without having to go through the rigmarole of sitting in an ashram or cave for enth number of years and meditating oneself into the Reality, but unfortunately  these quicker methods are usually deemed illegal by society and so inaccessible to many (there is the herd/pashu again blocking up the gates to Reality for those wishing escape out of maya). Sound familiar?</p>
<p>In any case, I leave you with this, the *hadith kumayl* (the dialogue of &#8216;Ali and his disciple Kumayl), which to me and the Tradition I follow stands as the ultimate summary of the highest of the Truths possibly communicate-able in words:</p>
<p>&#8211;<br />
Kumayl: O Commander of the Faithful, what is Ultimate Reality (ma&#8217;l-haqiqa)?</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: what have you and Ultimate Reality have to do with each other?</p>
<p>Kumayl: Is it not the case that I am sharing your secrets as a companion?</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: Yes, indeed. But that which sprinkles unto you is billowing through me unto you?</p>
<p>Kumayl: So what is Ultimate Reality?</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: The Disclosure of the Majesties of Glorification without indication.</p>
<p>Kumayl: Tell me more.</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: The apophatic negation of all speculation and the realization of that which can be realized.</p>
<p>Kumayl: Tell me more.</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: The nullificative annihilation of the secret by the Victorious rending of the Veil off the Mystery of the Secret.</p>
<p>Kumayl: Please tell me more.</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: The attraction of the Divine Oneness by the attributive apprehension of the Divine Unicity.</p>
<p>Kumayl: Tell me more.</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: A Light Illuminating from the Morning-Dawn of Pre-Eternity and shedding Its traces upon the Talismanic-Temples of Mono-Unitarian Unicity.</p>
<p>Kumayl: Please explicate further.</p>
<p>&#8216;Ali: Extinguish the lamp for the dawn hath indeed arisen!</p>
<p>&#8211;</p>
<p>Wahid
</p>
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		<title>Comment on Parsí Dualism in Shí‘a Islám by Tim</title>
		<link>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/parsi-dualism-in-shi%e2%80%98a-islam/#comment-259</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://kaweah.com/blog/2008/07/08/parsi-dualism-in-shi%e2%80%98a-islam/#comment-259</guid>
					<description>Very interesting and insightful. If I may, one source you might want to add is my book &quot;Holiest Wars: Islamic Mahdis, their Jihads and Osama bin Laden&quot; (Praeger, 2005), wherein I talk about the dual messiahs concept of Zoroastrianism and its possible influence on the roles of the Mahdi and Jesus in Islam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting and insightful. If I may, one source you might want to add is my book &#8220;Holiest Wars: Islamic Mahdis, their Jihads and Osama bin Laden&#8221; (Praeger, 2005), wherein I talk about the dual messiahs concept of Zoroastrianism and its possible influence on the roles of the Mahdi and Jesus in Islam.
</p>
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